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Mongol_Ard
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Lately, I started looking for books by Nicola Di Cosmo.
I think He is very serious scholar with great knowledge.
"Manchu-Mongol Relations on the Eve of the Qing Conquest" by Nicola Di Cosmo
"Warfare in Inner Asian History By Nicola Di Cosmo" by Nicola Di Cosmo
yu gedeg bilee, Yun ter John Man, yun Uradyn bulag. Nicola Di Cosmo mash sain erdemten |
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curious1
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| Cezare писал(а): | | dGalsan писал(а): | а кто нить читал книгу "Чингисхан " Джона Мэна?
на русском его издали Эксмо-шники в этом году | Я читал в 2006 году. Странной показалось книгой, легковесной какой-то. | - мне эта книга тоже показалась поверхностной - что-то автор хочет сказать, когда переносится из прошлого в настоящее, а что конкретно, я так и не поняла. Кроме исторических экскурсов в этой книге еще и впечатляния от авторского путешествия.
Про Di Cosmo говорят, что он тяжело пишет... К тому же книга о монголо-маньчужских отношениях написана в соавторстве с китайцем Dalizhabu Bao. Разве китайцы правду когда-либо писали об истории?
Мне кажется, что Джек Везерфорд лучший западный автор об истории монголов.
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Tsebeen
Мудур кэку
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| curious1 писал(а): | | написана в соавторстве с китайцем Dalizhabu Bao. Разве китайцы правду когда-либо писали об истории? |
вообще-то, судя по имени, Dalizhabu Bao не китаец, а монгол. Ну, что-то вроде Дарижап Михайлыч.
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 Отшеньдобрый hидальго Дон Цэбээн Кижингинский и Доодо-Кодунский, Улаан-Yдэнский и Улаанбаатарский и прочая, прочая... едет к сеньоре Наталее Добоской и Машзаводской |
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songool
соохор адуу
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очень может быть что Борджигин Дарижаб. так как многие монголы из Внутренней Монголии Борджигин сменили на Бао.
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миний блогто айлчалаарай!!!
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curious1
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Dalizhabu Bao, Ph.D. (1996) in Ancient Chinese History (Central University of Nationalities, Beijing), is Professor and Head of the History Department at that same university. He has published extensively on the Mongol history in the Ming and Qing period and on the Manchu and Qing dynasties. - http://212.72.36.107/default.aspx?partid=75&pid=22324 - Профессор и глава исторического департмента Университета Национальностей или Национального Университета?? (пойди пойми, что китайцы имели в виду?) в Пекине. Учитывая отношение китайцев к нацменам, в том числе к тем, кто во Внутренней Монголии, то очень низка вероятность, что Бао - монгол.
Обсуждаемая книга - перевод монгольских и маньчжурских источников 17 века, когда Маньчжурия захватила Китай. По мнению специалистов это дает свежий (т.е. некитайский взгляд), т.к. история Центральной Азии изучается в основном по китайским источникам...
Вполне возможно, что китайцы свои тексты вдоль и поперек сделали и решили теперь "ссылаться" на маньчжурские или монгольские.
Кто-то говорил про эту книгу - хоть бы перевели нормально...
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Tsebeen
Мудур кэку
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| curious1 писал(а): | Учитывая отношение китайцев к нацменам, в том числе к тем, кто во Внутренней Монголии, то очень низка вероятность, что Бао - монгол.
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непонятная логика. Не видел ни одного китайца с именем длиннее, чем в два иероглифа, а тем более по имени Дарижаб. Бао рапространенная среди внутренних монголов фамилия. Этим иероглифом передается монгольская фамилия Борджигин.
| curious1 писал(а): | | Университета Национальностей или Национального Университета?? (пойди пойми, что китайцы имели в виду?) |
Центральный университет национальностей — Тєвийн Yндэстний Их Сургууль.
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Отшеньдобрый hидальго Дон Цэбээн Кижингинский и Доодо-Кодунский, Улаан-Yдэнский и Улаанбаатарский и прочая, прочая... едет к сеньоре Наталее Добоской и Машзаводской |
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curious1
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| Tsebeen писал(а): | | curious1 писал(а): | Учитывая отношение китайцев к нацменам, в том числе к тем, кто во Внутренней Монголии, то очень низка вероятность, что Бао - монгол.
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непонятная логика. Не видел ни одного китайца с именем длиннее, чем в два иероглифа, а тем более по имени Дарижаб. Бао рапространенная среди внутренних монголов фамилия. Этим иероглифом передается монгольская фамилия Борджигин.
| curious1 писал(а): | | Университета Национальностей или Национального Университета?? (пойди пойми, что китайцы имели в виду?) |
Центральный университет национальностей — Тєвийн Yндэстний Их Сургууль. | - Этот университет в Пекине, а не во Внутренней Монголии.
Я встречала китайцев с длинными именами (не знаю, сколько иероглифов, но имена длинные). Может они тайные монголы:)
Даже если этот Дарижаб монгол (пусть и скрытый), он в Китае, где они рот не смеют открыть против коммунистической партии. Если он дорос до такого чина в Китае, можно себе представить насколько он идеологически выдержанный. у них не только гуманитарии (эти-то по определению создают идеологию), но и технари такие...ух-х-х. Любому путинскому политруку забьют какой русский президент Путин хороший.
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setsen
заримдаа ороошо
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[quote="dGalsan"]а кто нить читал книгу "Чингисхан " Джона Мэна?
на русском его издали Эксмо-шники в этом году[/quote
Kogda chital istoriyu pervoi stychki russkikh i mongolov na Kalke, uvidel chislo russko-polovetskikh voisk chto bylo 8000. Po moemu russkoe izdatel'stvo zabylo odin nulik. A tak v principe normal'nyi perevod. |
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Mongol_Ard
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http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft296nb15t&chunk.id=d0e12552&toc.id=d0e12552&brand=eschol
Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China
| Цитата: | For a Mongolist who had tried so often to get to Ulan Bator and failed because the controllers of access, the Russians, would not cooperate, Lattimore's notes on the Mongolian stay of two days are remarkably low-key. He did record the topography during the flight and the condition of the fields and livestock, but there was no recorded exhilaration comparable to his first view of the Heavenly Mountains in 1927. Instead there was a torrent of political and sociological data.
When the Wallace plane landed July 2 at a field east of Ulan Bator, Lattimore descended first. Recognizing Choibalsan from photos, Lattimore greeted him by name. The response was immediate and warm. Lattimore wrote in his diary, "Choibalsan speaks very clearly, so 1 got off to a good start interpreting in Mongol."
Lattimore saw "many big, fine, new buildings, but quantities of [yurts] & whole quarters of rather poor, Chinese style courtyard dwellings." There was a huge hospital, much more impressive than anything he had seen in Inner Mongolia. His general impression was that the Mongols were running their own show and that they knew what they were doing. Russian influence was "very strong, but the kind of influence is 'how to do it' rather than 'what you must do next.'" He was told there were about fifteen hundred Russians in Ulan Bator, a city of one hundred thousand.
Surprisingly, there was still considerable private wealth in the MPR. The richest individual was said to be a woman in Kobdo who owned five thousand sheep and one thousand head of other stock. Her possessions
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meant she must have a large number of employees and therefore "exploitation of man by man." But the factories, such as the textile mill he saw, were easily nationalized from the beginning because they were something new.
Mongol nationalism showed strongly. So far as he could learn, the constitution, which borrowed from many countries, had not been translated into either Russian or Chinese. The "main stream of political thought, however, undoubtedly flows from Lenin-Stalin. . . . Seems to be no Mongol Sun Yat-sen. In the State theater, there is a small medallion each of Sukhe Bator & Choibalsan over the stage; but at each side of the stage a large medallion of Lenin & one of Stalin, each with a long quotation."
On July 3 Wallace and party got "the tour." The presentation consisted of a factory making serums and vaccines for animal husbandry, where "competent Mongol veterinarians and technicians" showed them around, with Russian "consultants" staying in the background. Then they saw three agricultural camps. The camps swarmed with healthy children, in contrast to what Stilwell had seen when he was there in 1923.[21] Lattimore inquired about the scourges of syphilis and gonorrhea, whose effects he had seen in Inner Mongolia. His guide said these diseases were under control except in a few remote areas. Lattimore believed it. At one camp he met a man who owned more than one thousand head of animals and whose family "pullulated with children." Lattimore regretted the vice president's presence on this tour. He found people talked more freely in their own tents, "but it's the devil to get VP into a tent. Only got him into one, & he was out again like a bat out of hell."
Lattimore noticed that most tents had Buddhist shrines "in their due place of honor"; but the only operating temple in Ulan Bator was a kind of "junk heap temple, with gear obviously salvaged from a number of temples. Only 10 lamas. Head man grizzled, portly, genial. No boy lamas . . . . As near as I can make out, policy is to prevent reincarnations of Living Buddhas & to swing people over to religion expressed in form of family shrines & attendance at public lama prayers at which the ceremony continues, but without the worship of living, human, ruling 'reincarnations.'"
That night they were entertained by the Minister of Livestock, who "turned out to be quite a fellow, well-read in structure of US Govt. He looks like a burly ox of a back country Mongol whom you would not suspect of intellectual activity. The whole crowd detailed to look after us are a fine lot. Average about 30."
The party left Ulan Bator on July 4. Dick Kight managed to celebrate
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that most American of holidays by firing a volley from his pistol at daybreak. There was some alarm among the Mongols, but Lattimore easily put their fears to rest. There seems to have been no ceremony on departure, nor did Lattimore express regret at having so few hours in the country he had so long wanted to visit. . |
| Цитата: | And a continuing major concern was for the welfare of the Mongols in China. Early in the year, as we have seen, Lattimore thought Chiang would deal with them generously. His contacts with Mongols in China now led him to believe that they most wanted home rule in a nonexploitive China; they would not opt for union with the Mongolian People's Republic unless the Chinese repressed them (March 29). Chiang's statements to the contrary, what Lattimore learned from returning observers was that the Chinese had behaved as conquerors and carpetbaggers in Inner Mongolia. He became increasingly pessimistic about the outcome. As to the Mongolian People's Republic, he strongly urged U.S. recognition and admission to the United Nations. This approach, he felt, would decrease Mongolian dependence on Moscow (September 6).
Lattimore's interest in the Mongols led to a major project of the Page School. Working through the American embassy in China, he contacted two young Mongols who had fled their homes when the Communists
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took over and who in 1946 were working for the Nationalist government. Both were fluent in Mongol, Mandarin, and Japanese; both feared that opportunities for professional study of the Mongol language and culture would be minimal under the Nationalists, and they were both on the Communist list of traitors. Lattimore applied to the American Council of Learned Societies for a grant to bring them to Johns Hopkins. Eventually he succeeded, and in 1948 John (Gombojab) Hangin and Peter (Urgunge) Onon left China just ahead of the Communist forces sweeping into Nanking. |
| Цитата: |
While the inquisition was being organized in the halls of Congress during the summer of 1951, a powerful drama involving Lattimore and the
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future of Tibet transpired out of public notice. Lattimore was not a Tibetan scholar, but the Mongols he championed were Lama Buddhists, and Tibet was the seat of their religion. The Dilowa had lived in Tibet several years after the war and was close to the Dalai Lama and the Dalai's elder brother, the Takster Lama. From the Dilowa, Lattimore knew of the manuscript riches of Tibetan monasteries, hence his 1949 effort to interest the Library of Congress in obtaining these manuscripts before the Chinese Communists took over that exotic land.
The fourteenth Dalai Lama was young and had assumed full powers only in 1950 after a ten-year regency. The Chinese invaded in October of that year, and the Tibetans were forced to sign an agreement with the People's Republic in May 1951. But the situation was still obscure; the Dalai Lama's advisers were divided over the prospects of retaining real autonomy, some believing that the Dalai should go into exile, others believing that he should remain in Tibet and try to work under the Chinese. It was this dilemma that motivated a trip by the Takster Lama to the United States in summer 1951. The Dalai was living in a remote monastery on the Indian border; he wanted his brother, among other things, to consult the Dilowa and Lattimore as to whether he should return to Lhasa or flee to India.
The United States government was indifferent to the fate of the Tibetan libraries but quite willing to embarrass the Chinese Communists by clandestine support of Tibetan independence. This was the CIA's province; its newly created front, the Committee for a Free Asia (CFA), flew the Takster Lama to the United States.[118]
The Takster Lama had never been out of Tibet and spoke no English. CFA obtained the services of Major Robert B. Ekvall, son of a missionary who had served on the Tibetan border, fluent in Tibetan, and a former Army Intelligence officer during and after the war, to take charge of the Takster's American sojourn.
Ekvall was known to the Lattimores. He had contemplated leaving the army to work with Lattimore's Central Asian seminar in 1946, and Ekvall and his wife spent a weekend with the Lattimores in Baltimore. Lattimore liked Ekvall and encouraged him to enroll at Johns Hopkins, but the army persuaded Ekvall to reenlist.[119]
When the Takster Lama arrived in the United States, Ekvall brought him immediately to Washington. The Dilowa, however, was then in Berkeley, and Ekvall frustrated all of the Takster's attempts to see the Dilowa or Lattimore. As the Takster reported in a letter to the Dilowa, who in turn wrote Lattimore, Ekvall said, "It would be a good thing for
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you not to talk to the Dilowa Hutukhtu about the affairs of the Dalai Lama on which you have come. Also, Lattimore is no good." The Takster was greatly upset; Lattimore was furious.[120]
On July 23, 1951, Lattimore wrote a long letter to Ekvall. It was restrained but firm. After reviewing the Dilowa's history, his flight from Outer Mongolia after the Communists tried him, his wartime service with Chiang Kai-shek, his residence in Lhasa, his coming to the United States in 1949, and his frustration at being unable to see the Takster, Lattimore wrote:
The Dilowa Hutukhtu was recognized in Tibet as the head of the rather large community of Mongol exiles and refugees from Outer and Inner Mongolia. When the Chinese Communists invaded Tibet the Dilowa Hutukhtu was in correspondence (as he still is), with Mongol Lama disciples of his in Kalimpong, on the India-Tibet frontier. Through correspondence forwarded by them, he is also in unbroken contact with the Dalai Lama personally and with certain of the elder statesmen of Tibet, such as Tsarong Shape. His advice and counsel is valued by them.
The Dilowa Hutukhtu's sole concern with Tibet and its politics is the preservation and continuity of his religion. He has feared that if a Chinese Communist "soft policy" should tempt the advisers of the Dalai Lama to urge the Dalai Lama to return to Lhasa, all would be lost. He is sure, from his own experience in Outer Mongolia, that it would only be a matter of time until the church would be dispossessed, the Dalai Lama deposed or disposed of in one way or another, and the "reincarnation" of a successor to the Dalai Lama prohibited. The branch of the Buddhist religion of which the Dalai Lama is head and the Dilowa Hutukhtu a distinguished prelate would then be extinguished in the world. Rather than let this happen, the Dilowa Hutukhtu is convinced that the Dalai Lama should go into exile, there to maintain at least a spark of the eternal flame of his religion. . . .
It would be a tragedy if, because of his personal friendship with me, the Dilowa Hutukhtu should be involved in the personal vilification and denigration to which I have been subjected and if, as a consequence, there should be sown in the minds of the Tibetans doubts and suspicions that their pathetic national tragedy is being wantonly subjected to mishandling, through no fault of their own, by contamination with the most corrupt and shameful, and to them obscure and frightening, side of American politics.[121]
Ekvall responded the next day. The Takster's inability to see the Dilowa, he said, was due to ill health. The Takster was in the hospital but would receive the Dilowa as soon as he was able.
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Ekvall eventually made good on his promise. Unfortunately, by then the moment of truth had passed. The Dalai Lama returned to Lhasa from his mountain hideout near the Indian border and began the uneasy coexistence with the People's Republic of China that ended in 1959 with the Tibetan uprising and the Dalai Lama's escape to India.
In December 1951, when the Dilowa was back in Baltimore, Ekvall let the Takster visit Lattimore. Eleanor Lattimore reported the visit in a letter to the Robert LeMoyne Barretts December 10:
We didn't hear anything more for a long time, but a week or so ago we had a phone call from Ekvall saying that the Takster Lama wished to call on us. He and a disciple and a keeper (doubtless from Central Intelligence) turned up and we gave a luncheon for them. Then in a few days Dilowa told us Takster and his disciple would like to come for a weekend. So last weekend we had the three lamas here (two Living Buddhas in one house!) It was lots of fun. Dilowa says this means Takster has declared his independence. But of course it's too late now to make any difference. One could certainly argue that if it hadn't been for McCarthy the Dalai Lama might not have gone back to Tibet and the Lama Buddhist religion, and a link between Tibet and the West, might have been preserved.[122]
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| Цитата: | Bullitt told SISS that Lattimore
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had claimed the Mongolian People's Republic was fully independent, that there was no Soviet control whatsoever, and that the United States should recognize the MPR.[4]
Lattimore's version is quite different. He did want to recognize the MPR, not because it was totally independent, but because recognition would increase its independence.[5] Furthermore, Lattimore wanted to give the proper Soviet authority a piece of his mind about Te Wang. As he told me in 1987, "Soviet officials had been bitterly attacking Te Wang, the non-Communist Inner Mongolian leader. They accused Te Wang of being pro-Japanese. I told Bullitt that Te Wang was a true Mongol nationalist and represented a better chance for the future of Inner Mongolia than the Soviet-supported puppets. Bullitt then suggested I tell that to the Vice-Commissar for Far Eastern Affairs."
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| Цитата: | Lattimore was still, at least in the international scholarly community, a major figure. He corresponded at some length with Krishna Menon, Indian foreign minister, about the situation of the Mongol exiles from communism then living at Kalimpong. Lattimore recommended to Menon that India take advantage of the intelligence these Mongols had to offer about conditions in the People's Republic of China and particularly in Tibet. Menon replied, "These Mongol exiles certainly deserve our sympathy and respect; and we shall keep an eye on them. I do hope you will come to Delhi again before long."[38]
Max Beloff, a prominent Oxford scholar, wrote Lattimore in February 1952 soliciting Lattimore's opinions on several matters relating to Inner Mongolia and Sinkiang discussed in a book Beloff was writing. Lattimore's appearance before SISS kept him from answering Beloff until May,
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when he reviewed for Beloff the latest intelligence from Central Asia and noted that both Chinese and Russians wanted to prevent a "pan-Mongolian" movement from flourishing.[39]
At the Page School, Mongol studies continued as well as possible given Lattimore's absences and preoccupations. The Dilowa dictated his autobiography and wrote political reminiscences, which Lattimore translated. Working with David Eberle and Harold Vreeland, the Dilowa also "provided the material for an institutional and social description and analysis of the position of the Lama Buddhist Church in pre-revolutionary Mongol Society." John Hangin and Urgunge Onon, the young Mongols at Hopkins, worked with their wives to produce a linguistic description and grammar of Chahar and Daghor Mongol; they also provided material for sociological and cultural analysis of the processes of change in Mongol society. Father Louis Schram, the Maryknoll scholar associated with Lattimore, continued writing his description of the sociology of the Mongols of western Kansu.[40]
Even during the tumult of 1952 many of these efforts came to fruition. The Dilowa's description of his former domain, the Narobanchin monastery, was published in the Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society . Lattimore's American outlets were no longer available (with one exception, noted below), but he had an article on the Genghis Khan relics in the Journal of the Royal Central Asian Society in April; an article, "Mongolia's New Relations with Her Neighbors," in the Manchester Guardian of November 24; and "Red Chinese and Red Barbarians" in Eastern World (London) in December.
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| Цитата: | Hostilities were easing on the Soviet side also. The "learned lackey of imperialism" was no longer persona non gram. Lattimore was invited to the Leningrad Congress and got his visa at the Soviet embassy in Washington April 11, 1960. It was something he had long wanted; Russian scholarship on Mongolia was still worth absorbing. Lattimore and his wife left for a long tour of Europe June 3, with three weeks in Russia.
The opportunity to talk to his Russian counterparts was all he expected of it. But a related opportunity was even more valuable: he made friends among scholars from the Mongolian People's Republic participating at Leningrad. They knew who he was. They had read his books and felt that his descriptions of life in Inner Mongolia in the 1930s rang true. One of them told him, "Your Mongols are real Mongols." [23] He met Natsagdorj, a member of the Mongolian Academy of Sciences, one of whose books Lattimore had translated into English; Bira, a prominent Tibetanist; and a young historian named Dalai. The Mongols invited him to visit.
If there was a scholarly summum bonum for Lattimore, it was the opportunity to study and travel in the MPR. He knew a lot about it from reading everything available in non-Mongol languages, from the few Mongol publications available in the West, and from endless conversation
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with the Dilowa, John Hangin, Urgunge Onon, and other Mongol expatriates. But the kind of on-the-spot experience he had had of Inner Mongolia was lacking. The three days he had spent in Ulan Bator with Wallace in 1944 had merely piqued his curiosity. Since that trip was "official" and Wallace was in the charge of Russians, Lattimore was not free to explore on his own. Now, at last, he would have a chance to see for himself.
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| Цитата: | In March 1961, however, when Lattimore asked the State Department if his passport could be validated for travel to Mongolia, they readily agreed.[24] And there were rumors afloat that the United States was considering exchanging diplomatic missions with the MPR. Lattimore could hardly believe this news. It was precisely the suggestion for which he had been castigated by William Bullitt and the China lobby. But on April 21 the New York Times carried a page-one story with the apparent blessing of the government: "Ties with Mongolia Are Planned by U.S." The reasons given for the action were nonsensical: "to determine whether Outer Mongolia is in fact an independent state." But Lattimore was impressed. The Kennedy administration might be more progressive than he had anticipated.
The Lattimores left for Europe in early June 1961, visiting Czechoslovakia for two weeks then taking the train through Russia to Mongolia. He knew the trip was a gamble. However friendly the Mongol intellectuals he had met in Leningrad, he was well aware that the political bosses back home might not be enchanted with a visitor fluent in the language prying into all kinds of affairs. As he puts it in Nomads and Commissars , "The auspices were good, but in Communist-ruled countries the opportunities allowed to foreign scholars can be cut off abruptly."[25]
The Lattimores arrived in Ulan Bator July 9 in the middle of celebrations marking the fortieth anniversary of Mongolia's Declaration of In-
― 505 ―
dependence (from China). As he wrote his father, there were "parades, vast drills of athletic organizations, and the traditional Mongol horse-racing, archery, and wrestling. These traditional sports, as we used to see them in Inner Mongolia, had become rather broken-down. Here, they are now restored with all the details of costume and heraldry. The people are passionately interested. After one horse race, the herald presenting the third horse and chanting its praises in alliterative verse got more applause than the herald presenting the winning horse, because his poetry was better!" [26]
The major celebration was on July 11. A colorful crowd of fifty thousand paraded for two hours before a reviewing stand, with MPR President Sambuu, Soviet Party Secretary Suslov, and Polish leader Gomulka taking the salutes. It seemed as if the whole of Mongolia's 950,000 people had turned out for the festivities. Lattimore wrote his father:
The old costumes abound, and the tiers of seats at the great stadium are a mosaic of colors. Mongol girls and women dress better, and in better taste, with a faultless eye for color and line, than the women of any other country of the Soviet bloc that we have seen. Checking with a French and an Italian and a British correspondent, I find them a little in despair because, they say, if they report simply their straightforward observations, everyone will say they have been "taken in by communist propaganda." As a matter of fact, it is impossible to work up an honest opinion that Mongolia is being run by anybody but the Mongols—and they are enjoying themselves hugely doing it.[27]
After the ceremonies Lattimore was introduced to the treasures of the National Library and conferred with scholars "full of the zest and exhilaration of discovery. Dialects, folklore, shaman chants—all are being tape recorded."[28] The head of the one big surviving Lama Buddhist monastery turned out to be a former disciple of the Dilowa and gave Lattimore extraordinary attention. Lattimore was inundated with historical materials. He found no oppressive Marxist doctrine dampening scholarly conversations in Mongolia, as it so often did with the Soviets.
From July 24 to August 4 the Lattimores were taken on a tour of the country, visiting five collective farms. As he wrote in a letter to Justice William O. Douglas, they were in "the original heartland of the history of the Huns, the Turks, and later the Mongols themselves. . . . Marvellous country, marvellous people. We also saw a lot of the new, collectivized pastoral economy. I was impressed by the intelligent way it builds on old traditions of cooperation (I put my yaks with your yaks, you put
― 506 ―
your sheep with my sheep, we'll both put our horses with that other fellow's horses) and so is more readily understood and accepted. The present degree of prosperity is too general, and we have travelled too widely, for there to be any question of specially-dressed-up show-places for foreigners." [29]
It was in this heartland of the Huns and Mongols that Lattimore was introduced to the "richest paleological find" that the great Russian archaeologist, Okladnikov, had ever seen. Artifacts half a million years old were found at the site, and Okladnikov told Lattimore how he had known to dig there. The Orkhon River made a bend, leaving a terrace suitable for a fishing camp. Near this terrace a small stream entered the Orkhon, and fluttering white rags were tied to bushes on the shores of the stream. "Right there under those bushes," Okladnikov said, "there is a mineral spring. Until quite recently, the local Mongols regarded it as magical and used its water to cure sickness. Probably it has been revered continually since the time of paleolithic man, because we know from other sites that men in the Old Stone Age were as aware as we are of the difference between mineral springs and ordinary springs. So when we found a mineral spring and a natural fishing camp within 50 yards of each other, we knew we had only to dig."[30] The chance to tour archaeological sites with Okladnikov was worth as much to Lattimore as anything on the trip.
Lattimore's forty-two days in Mongolia sped by mercilessly. Toward the end, he was asked to address the Academy of Sciences. It was a fitting climax. He was complimentary to his hosts, telling them to be proud of their nomad past as well as their startling leap into modernity. Justice Douglas, for whom Lattimore arranged a visit to Mongolia in September 1961, says, "A member of the Academy of Sciences in that country told me that Lattimore addressed them for an hour in Ulan Bator, speaking Mongolian. He paid Lattimore the highest compliment possible: 'If I had closed my eyes and listened, I would have sworn the speaker was Mongolian.'"[31]
On August 19 the Lattimores flew to Irkutsk, Moscow, and Copenhagen, where Owen was to give a series of lectures. The Monglian customs officials did not even open their baggage.[32]
The American initiative to open diplomatic relations with the MPR stirred up the China lobby while Lattimore was gone. Marvin Liebman, secretary of the Committee of One Million, raised hell. Recognition of Mongolia, he told the New York Times and a dozen or so prominent members of the China bloc in Congress, was just the opening wedge in an attempt to push
― 507 ―
through recognition of the People's Republic of China. On June 29, 1961, the State Department announced that negotiations with Mongolia were progressing; Chester Bowles, undersecretary of State, and Roger Hilsman, director of State's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, were pushing this initiative.[33]
The effort was premature. Had there been no other obstacles, word of Lattimore's presence in Ulan Bator that summer would have killed it. The Washington Post story of July 12 called the attention of official Washington to the fact that Lattimore and his wife were attending the Mongolian fortieth anniversary celebrations, and that news set off a new round of China lobby outrage. On July 13 the National Republican Congressional Committee "accused the Kennedy Administration of 30 actions that the committee said were withdrawals from the policies of the Eisenhower Administration in dealings with the Communists." Among them was the fact that the State Department had "granted a visa to Owen Lattimore for a 'study trip' to Outer Mongolia, although Lattimore has been named by a Senate subcommittee as a 'conscious, articulate instrument of the Communist party.'" Senator Everett Dirksen and Representative Charles Halleck, Republican leaders, denounced the reported proposal to recognize Mongolia.[34]
Unique among the ultraconservative fulminations was the July 16 ABC radio broadcast of George Sokolsky, the text of which was printed in the Brooklyn Tablet . Sokolsky was alarmed at Lattimore's trip: "How he got there, I don't know. What kind of passport he's using, I don't know. We have no regulations with Mongolia; our passport doesn't hold there, but he's gone there." Sokolsky reviewed the "great power of Ghengis [sic ] Khan, which in the 13th Century conquered China and conquered much of Europe, east of Germany. It held Russia for a prolonged period. It held India and the Mongol Empire in India. It is Mongolia which is being revived as a power in this attempt to force upon the world the United Nations. This is a peril which is really greater than one imagines because, to us, the name Mongolia hardly means anything anymore and yet, out of that desert land has come this great power which at one time dominated much of the world and which can do it again if armed and given the direction and guidance that could lead to that. This, then, is our peril at the time." [35]
It is hard to excuse such crass ignorance. Sokolsky should have known that Mongolia was a sparsely populated country of fewer than one million and that it was totally surrounded by Russia and China, who would hardly give the Mongols the arms, direction, and guidance to conquer the Eur-
― 508 ―
asian continent. Sokolsky did not name his candidate for a modern Genghis Khan.
David Nelson Rowe, at Yale, was also alarmed at Lattimore's travels. On August 9, 1961, he cabled Senator Eastland: "STRONGLY RECOMMEND INVESTIGATION OF PART PLAYED BY OWEN LATTIMORE IN OUTER MONGOLIA RECENTLY AND POSSIBLE COOPERATION WITH LATTIMORE BY DEPT OF STATE INABLING HIS PRESENCE THERE AND CURRENT SUGGESTION UNITED STATES ENTER INTO DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH SOVIET PUPPET OF OUTER MONGOLIA ." Eastland politely declined, telling Rowe that unless "information could be obtained that would furnish a sound basis for such a hearing" it would be a mere fishing expedition.[36]
The entire right-wing press jumped on the issue. Pressure was too great for Bowles to continue. On August 11 President Kennedy ordered plans for the exchange of diplomats with the MPR dropped.[37]
Senator Thomas Dodd of Connecticut didn't believe it was all over. On August 22 he told the Senate that it was no accident that Lattimore was in Mongolia "at the very moment when there was a big drive on" to recognize that country. Dodd threatened to call Lattimore before SISS "to establish all of the facts about his visit."[38] The threat was never carried out.
Justice William O. Douglas came back from two weeks in Mongolia in late September, calling for recognition of the MPR since it was independent of both China and Russia.[39] He was too late: the issue was dead.
The United Nations presented a different situation. A package deal, in which admission of Mongolia and Mauritania (wanted by the French African bloc) were linked, passed the Security Council October 25, 1961. The Mongolian People's Republic became a member of the community of nations.
Lattimore returned to Johns Hopkins October 1 with a treasure trove of historical materials, notes from manuscripts, records of interviews, and photographs. He now had the raw materials to flesh out an account of Outer Monglia to match his 1934 Mongols of Manchuria . He set about producing a contemporary description of the MPR with enough background to explain how things came to be the way he found them in the summer of 1961.
Nomads and Commissars , published by Oxford University Press in June 1962, was the result. It is still a valuable exposition of the development of Outer Mongolia in the modern period, beginning with the Mongol revolution against Manchu rule in 1911. This revolution established an auton-
― 509 ―
The effort was premature. Had there been no other obstacles, word of Lattimore's presence in Ulan Bator that summer would have killed it. The Washington Post story of July 12 called the attention of official Washington to the fact that Lattimore and his wife were attending the Mongolian fortieth anniversary celebrations, and that news set off a new round of China lobby outrage. On July 13 the National Republican Congressional Committee "accused the Kennedy Administration of 30 actions that the committee said were withdrawals from the policies of the Eisenhower Administration in dealings with the Communists." Among them was the fact that the State Department had "granted a visa to Owen Lattimore for a 'study trip' to Outer Mongolia, although Lattimore has been named by a Senate subcommittee as a 'conscious, articulate instrument of the Communist party.'" Senator Everett Dirksen and Representative Charles Halleck, Republican leaders, denounced the reported proposal to recognize Mongolia.[34]
Unique among the ultraconservative fulminations was the July 16 ABC radio broadcast of George Sokolsky, the text of which was printed in the Brooklyn Tablet . Sokolsky was alarmed at Lattimore's trip: "How he got there, I don't know. What kind of passport he's using, I don't know. We have no regulations with Mongolia; our passport doesn't hold there, but he's gone there." Sokolsky reviewed the "great power of Ghengis [sic ] Khan, which in the 13th Century conquered China and conquered much of Europe, east of Germany. It held Russia for a prolonged period. It held India and the Mongol Empire in India. It is Mongolia which is being revived as a power in this attempt to force upon the world the United Nations. This is a peril which is really greater than one imagines because, to us, the name Mongolia hardly means anything anymore and yet, out of that desert land has come this great power which at one time dominated much of the world and which can do it again if armed and given the direction and guidance that could lead to that. This, then, is our peril at the time." [35]
It is hard to excuse such crass ignorance. Sokolsky should have known that Mongolia was a sparsely populated country of fewer than one million and that it was totally surrounded by Russia and China, who would hardly give the Mongols the arms, direction, and guidance to conquer the Eur-
― 508 ―
asian continent. Sokolsky did not name his candidate for a modern Genghis Khan.
David Nelson Rowe, at Yale, was also alarmed at Lattimore's travels. On August 9, 1961, he cabled Senator Eastland: "STRONGLY RECOMMEND INVESTIGATION OF PART PLAYED BY OWEN LATTIMORE IN OUTER MONGOLIA RECENTLY AND POSSIBLE COOPERATION WITH LATTIMORE BY DEPT OF STATE INABLING HIS PRESENCE THERE AND CURRENT SUGGESTION UNITED STATES ENTER INTO DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH SOVIET PUPPET OF OUTER MONGOLIA ." Eastland politely declined, telling Rowe that unless "information could be obtained that would furnish a sound basis for such a hearing" it would be a mere fishing expedition.[36]
The entire right-wing press jumped on the issue. Pressure was too great for Bowles to continue. On August 11 President Kennedy ordered plans for the exchange of diplomats with the MPR dropped.[37]
Senator Thomas Dodd of Connecticut didn't believe it was all over. On August 22 he told the Senate that it was no accident that Lattimore was in Mongolia "at the very moment when there was a big drive on" to recognize that country. Dodd threatened to call Lattimore before SISS "to establish all of the facts about his visit."[38] The threat was never carried out.
Justice William O. Douglas came back from two weeks in Mongolia in late September, calling for recognition of the MPR since it was independent of both China and Russia.[39] He was too late: the issue was dead.
The United Nations presented a different situation. A package deal, in which admission of Mongolia and Mauritania (wanted by the French African bloc) were linked, passed the Security Council October 25, 1961. The Mongolian People's Republic became a member of the community of nations.
Lattimore returned to Johns Hopkins October 1 with a treasure trove of historical materials, notes from manuscripts, records of interviews, and photographs. He now had the raw materials to flesh out an account of Outer Monglia to match his 1934 Mongols of Manchuria . He set about producing a contemporary description of the MPR with enough background to explain how things came to be the way he found them in the summer of 1961.
Nomads and Commissars , published by Oxford University Press in June 1962, was the result. It is still a valuable exposition of the development of Outer Mongolia in the modern period, beginning with the Mongol revolution against Manchu rule in 1911. This revolution established an auton-
― 509 ―
omous state lasting about ten years. During this period czarist Russia began to take an interest in Mongolia. It was a barren time; Mongol leadership was weak, and the dominance of the Buddhist monasteries was suffocating. Lattimore refers to this period as the "years of frustration."
Modern Mongolia began to take shape with the Partisan Rebellion of Sukebator in 1921; this was the revolution celebrated by the MPR when Lattimore first came in the summer of 1961. There was much controversy about the extent to which Marxist practices were imposed on the Mongols by the Bolsheviks and about responsibility for the confiscation of private property and the purges of 1929-32, known as the Left Deviation. Though sympathetic to the Mongols, Lattimore concludes that left-wing Mongols rather than Soviet agents were responsible for the terror. It was, in fact, under Comintern guidance that the policy of forced collectivization was reversed.[40] Western assumptions about Soviet tyranny in Mongolia, Lattimore asserts, are mistaken. The Soviet Union could easily have annexed Mongolia but did not, and Soviet protection of Mongolia from Japanese encroachment in the 1930s saved the Mongols from the brutalization Japan inflicted on Manchuria.
It was of great significance to Lattimore that Mongolia had no capitalist past yet moved rapidly from feudalism to the modernity of 1961 with Soviet aid. He saw it as a model for other developing countries. The progress of Mongolia as he observed it did not decrease the enthusiasm for free enterprise capitalism in developing countries, which he had touted in Solution and Situation ; he recognized that Mongolia was a special case. Other developing countries had at least a modest bourgeois capitalist class on which to build.
Nomads and Commissars remained Lattimore's primary volume on the subject of Outer Mongolia. In 1987, when he wrote "Mongolia as a Leading State" for the Journal of the Mongolia Society , he conformed closely to the conclusions he had reached in 1962.
After the stimulus of the trip to Ulan Bator in 1961, life at Johns Hopkins seemed tame. |
| Цитата: | The Lattimores arrived in Leeds early June 1963,
..................................
Two weeks after his inaugural lecture Lattimore was contacted by the British foreign office. The adventure to which this call led brought glee to his voice when he described it twenty years later:
Very soon after I got to England, the Mongols and the British recognized each other, and the Mongols appointed their first Ambassador to Britain. One morning, I'd just got to the office at the University, and the phone rang. The voice said, "My name is—whatever [Dugald Malcolm]—at the foreign office. In a few days, the new Mongolian ambassador will present his letters to the queen. Would you consent to be the interpreter?" I said, "Well, that would be a great honor, but I'm not qualified. In the first instance, I'm not even a British subject." And the voice said, "Oh yes, we know all that, but you're the man we want." So I did that function. The man who was in attendance on the queen during the ceremony [Sir Harold Caccia], the queen, and I and the Mongol Ambassador were the only people in the room. The queen's attendant was a man I had met first in Peking when he was secretary at the embassy. . .. That whole ceremony shows how skillfully the British handle that kind of thing. The Mongol had, of course, his own English-speaking aide with him. But the British thought that for British prestige, they must have the interpreter on the British side, not on the visitor's side. To prepare for it—gain very British—they sent the ambassador up to Leeds, to see me. They put him in that famous resort hotel, and sent me over there to dine with him so we could get acquainted. We had a good talk. He was a crafty ambassador, too. He said, "I suppose there will be some small talk, and they will ask me how I like England. What should I talk about?" I said, "There's one sure thing. All the royal family are crazy about horses. So say something about horses." When we got there, the queen sure enough asked him if he'd had a good time so far in England. He said "Yes, I went to Yorkshire, and since we Mongols are crazy about horses, we know there are two great breeds in the world, the Arab horse, and the English
― 515 ―
thoroughbred. So while I was in Yorkshire I went to several stables and saw your English thoroughbreds." "Oh," said the queen very interested. "And you have horseracing in Mongolia?" "Yes, at the big festival every summer we have the great national horse race. Only our horseracing is a little bit different from yours. You see, for us the race is a test of the horse, and not of the jockey. So we don't put a strong rider on the horse. We put a young rider on it. The race is about twenty-five kilometers and it has to be a horse that is willing to run that on his own, without being driven by his jockey. Our jockeys are retired for age when they are twelve years old." And that's the first and only time I have seen British royalty do a double-take.
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| Цитата: | During August 1964 Lattimore went back to Mongolia. Eleanor was not able to go, so Lattimore's son David accompanied him. He described his trip in a letter to Mortimer Graves: "We did about 2,500 miles in a jeep-like vehicle, then came back to Ulan Bator and I saw a lot of my scholar friends. They did just about everything except make me a member of the University and the Academy, and we came back loaded with loot. In addition, we are getting eight students to come here [Leeds] this month for an intensive six-months' English course. A real scoop, first ever west of the Iron Curtain."[11] David remembers that more than anything else on their trip, his father enjoyed talking with Okladnikov, whom the elder Lattimore regarded as the most impressive scholar-adventurer he ever knew.
The Lattimore house in the fall of 1964 was like a hotel. The rector of the Mongolian National University was just one of hundreds of guests who made the Lattimore residence a visitor's center. Americans, Mongols, British, French, Swedes—very conceivable nationality sent somebody to visit Lattimore.
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| Цитата: | Lattimore wanted to take David to Mongolia again the summer of 1966, but David was working hard on his dissertation and decided he shouldn't go. Eleanor preferred another visit to the United States, so Lattimore went to Mongolia with Urgunge Onon. He had a glorious month, recording songs and legends and visiting for the first time Gurban Nor, the alleged birthplace of Genghis Khan. He had all of July in the MPR, then met Eleanor in Copenhagen for a week before returning to Leeds.[25]
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| Цитата: | Lattimore's unease in China shows clearly in a letter to Bill Rogers: "When we were at last across the frontier and trundling along toward Ulan Bator, Fujiko and I looked at each other and it was a 'now we're home' look. I just don't know how to say it, but there's always that shade of difference between Chinese and Mongols. Everywhere in China people were wonderful to us, and it was genuine, not put on. But always, somehow, however faint, that touch of condescension—'how tolerant we are, we Chinese, to treat you as people, and not rub it in that you're barbarians.' The Russians have their own form of that, too. But with the Mongols, you're not being 'admitted'—you're there."[67]
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| Цитата: | Inevitably, in the question period Lattimore was grilled about Mongolia:
Herbert Levin asked Mr. Lattimore for his comments on contemporary thinking in Mongolia about relations with other countries. Mr. Lattimore made three points. First, the Mongols attribute their survival as a nation to their alliance with the Soviet Union. They greatly resent the allegation that they are a Soviet satellite. When Mr. Lattimore used that word to refer to Mongolia in the 1930's, he intended no pejorative meaning. Later the term became pejorative, making the Mongols upset. Even today, the idea is popular that Mongolia is squeezed between two giants. Since the Mongols are on one side, however, they do not feel squeezed.
Secondly, the Mongols are proud of their national independence. They take part in the United Nations and UNESCO, and bitterly resent the State Department attitude that the Soviet Union controls Mongolia.
― 570 ―
Recently the Mongols published a book on "Mao and the Maoists." It criticizes the Chinese minority policies, but is restrained in comparison with the Chinese language used to describe the Mongols as "the new serfs of the new Tsars."
Finally, the Mongols understand China better than China understands Mongolia. The weak understand the strong.[23]
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| Цитата: | Lattimore was one of the highest-ranking guests as the MPR celebrated its sixtieth anniversary. Tsedenbal, the premier, received him and Maria for a full hour. The polemics were now reversed: Tsedenbal was worried about an infiltration of Chinese spies, mostly men who married Mongol women and moved to the MPR to gather defense secrets and carry out sabotage. Maria gave Tsedenbal a poem she had composed celebrating the anniversary. The poem, Lattimore said, delighted him. It included a reference to the Mongol cosmonaut who had recently gone on a Soviet space flight; this Russian-Mongol venture was a symbol for the celebration.
Lattimore's formal part in the proceedings was a speech (in Mongol) at the Academy. Maria says he practiced on her during the train ride and then spoke without notes. His theme was the significance of China's Great Wall. He did not see it as merely a barrier to keep out barbarians. Construction of the wall would have required either large numbers of resident workers or incredibly long supply lines. The Chinese aim must have been at least partly to extend the area inhabited by ethnic Chinese. This was a theme the Mongols appreciated.
There were the usual reunions with friends and former students, picnics in the countryside, attendance at the festival games, visits to the library and bookstores. Possibly the high point of the trip for Lattimore occurred the day he made his call on the British embassy. He and Maria walked to and from their hotel. His back was hurting on the return trip, and he stopped to rest on one of the benches lining Ulan Bator streets. At this bench an elderly Mongol, dressed in traditional robe and boots with turned-up toes, noticed Lattimore's coral and silver ring of Mongol design. The old man whispered almost inaudibly, "Where did you get the ring?" He was not sure whether he should pry into the affairs of this foreigner, was not sure the foreigner spoke Mongol, and did not fully expect an answer. Lattimore heard and responded, starting a long conversation. The Mongol knew that this was someone special; Lattimore knew that he was "one of them." Two weeks in Ulan Bator were again too short; on July 18, 1981, Lat-
― 581 ―
timore and Maria were on the Trans-Siberian railway en route to Novosibirsk.
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Последний раз редактировалось: Mongol_Ard (22.01.08, 18:08 +0000), всего редактировалось 1 раз |
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luckymax
ходо байгша
Зарегистрирован: Mar 13, 2004
Сообщения: 389
Откуда: квартала-ла |
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сейчас читаю "История монголов" - Н.Я.Бичурин (книга посвещена истории первых четырех ханов дома Чингса. восновном опирается на китайские источники"История дома Чингиса " и Всеобщею историю")
_________________
легко быть первым, когда ты лучший. |
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Unkas
мүнхэ
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Зарегистрирован: Oct 04, 2004
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Откуда: ...где-то рядом |
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| Каралай писал(а): | | Tsebeen писал(а): | | а может в архив и на ifolder или rapidshare? много времени отнимет? это было бы оптимально |
Книгу выслал модератору Dodge'у.
П.С. Думаю Unkas и бурятские аспиранты будут довольны. :D |
И где можно это все почитать? Чтобы мы стали довольны? :) |
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adm
dma
Зарегистрирован: Nov 19, 2003
Сообщения: 14584
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| Добавлено: 30.01.08, 17:02 +0000 |
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| Unkas писал(а): | | Каралай писал(а): | | Tsebeen писал(а): | | а может в архив и на ifolder или rapidshare? много времени отнимет? это было бы оптимально |
Книгу выслал модератору Dodge'у.
П.С. Думаю Unkas и бурятские аспиранты будут довольны. :D |
И где можно это все почитать? Чтобы мы стали довольны? :) |
Напишите свой ящик мне в личку. Просто как понял, тут непонятно ситуация с авторскими правами. |
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asan-kaygy
ороошо
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Откуда: Астана |
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http://forum.tore.kz/index.php?showtopic=450
Название: Генеалогия Джучидов в 13-18 веках
Автор: Сабитов Ж.М.
Астана. 2-ое издание (дополненное и исправленное)
Год: 2008
Страниц: 224
Формат: pdf
Размер: 1,5 MB
Язык: Русский
ISBN: 9965-536-52-X
Ссылка: www.tore.kz/sabitov.pdf
Краткое описание: книга состоит из трех частей:
научной монографии по Джучидам, шежере (геналогия) рода торе(джучиды), собранным на основе данных И.В. Ерофеевой, Шотамана Валиханова, и др. и эссе на тему евразийства. |
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asan-kaygy
ороошо
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Для разминки мой список правителей Золотой орды:
Генеалогия и Хронология правителей:
Правители Золотой Орды
Бату-хан (1208-1255) Сын Джучи и Уки-фудж-хатун, дочери Иналчи-нойона. Правил в 1227-1255.
Сартак (?-1256) Сын Бату. Правил в 1255-1256.
Улагчи (?-1257) Сын Сартака. Правил в 1256-1257.
Берке-хан (1210-1266) Сын Джучи и Султан-хатун. Правил в 1257-1266.
Менгу-Тимур (?-1282) Сын Тукана (сына Бату) и Кучу-хатун, дочери Чичкан и Торэлчи-гургена, внучки Чингисхана. Правил в 1266-1280.
Туда-Менгу (?-1288) Сын Тукана (сына Бату) и Кучу-хатун, дочери Чичкан и Торэлчи-гургена, внучки Чингисхана. Правил в 1280-1287.
Теле-бука (?-1291) Сын Тарбу, сына Тукана, сына Бату. Правил в 1287-1291.
Тохта (?-1291) Сын Менгу-Тимура и Олджай-хатун, дочери Салджидай-гургэна и Келмиш-аки, правнучки Тулуя, из племени кунгират. Правил в 1291-1312.
Узбек (?-07.04.1342) Сын Тогрылчи, сына Менгу-Тимура. Правил в 1312-1342.
Тинибек (?-1342) Сын Узбека и Тайдуллы. Правил в 1342.
Джанибек (?-22.07.1357) Сын Узбека и Тайдуллы. Правил в 1342-1357..
Бердибек (?-13.11.1359) Сын Джанибека и Тоглу-хатун. Правил в 1357-1359.
Великая замятня.
Кульпа (Кельдибек) (?-сентябрь 1362) Сын Иринбека, сына Узбека. Правил в 1359-1362.
Науруз (?-1361) Сын Джанибека. Правил в 1360.
Хызыр-хан (?-1361) Сын Мангутая, сына Теле-буги, сына Кадака, сына Шибана, сына Джучи. Правил в 1360-1361.
Базарчи (Орда-Мелик, Орда-шейх) (?-1361) Сын Буралыги, сына Тукуза, сына Тангута, сына Джучи. Правил в 1360-1361.
Темир-ходжа (?-1361) Сын Хызыра. Правил в 1361.
Кутлук-Тимур (?-?) Сын Нумкана, сына Абая, сына Кин-Тимура, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в 1361.
Мурид (?-1363) Сын Мангутая, сына Теле-буги, сына Кадака, сына Шибана. Правил в 1361-1363.
Пулад (?-?) Сын Менгу-Тимура, сына Бадагула, сына Джучи-Буки, сына Бахадура, сына Шибана, сына Джучи. Правил в 1364.
Азиз-шейх (?-1367) Сын Темир-ходжи. Правил в 1364-1367.
Айбек (?-1375) Сын Менгу-Тимура, сына Бадагула, сына Джучи-Буки, сына Бахадура, сына Шибана, сына Джучи. Правил в 1362-1375.
Каганбек (?-?) Сын Айбека. Правил в 1375-1380.
Хорезм
Хусейн Ак суфи(?-?) Сын Нангудая-эмира, из племени кунграт и Союн-бике, дочери Узбека. Правил в 1361-?.
Мордовия
Сеит-бей (Секиз-бей)(?-1361) Генеалогия неизвестна. Нечингизид. Правил в 1361-1362. Тогай (?-1367) Генеалогия неизвестна. Нечингизид. Правил в 1362-1367 в Мордовии (на мордовских землях от Бездежа до Наручади).
Араб-шах (?-?) Сын Пулада. Правил в 1375-1380.
Астрахань
Хаджи-Черкес (?-1375) Сын Джанибека. Правил в 1361-1375 в Астрахани. По другой версии эмир-нечингизид
Салчен (?-?) Сын дочери Джанибека и Амата, сына Исы-гургена. Из династии киятов. Правил в 1375-1379.
Крым
Мамай (?-1381) Из династии кият. Был женат на дочери Бердибека. Правил от имени подставных ханов.
Абдулла (?-1370) Сын Хидырбека, сына Узбека. Правил в 1361-1370. Был марионеточным ханом в руках Мамая.
Мухаммед Булюк (?-1380) Сын Тинибека. Правил в 1370-1380. Был марионеточным ханом в руках Мамая.
Тулугбек (?-1380) Сын Тинибека. Правил в 1380.
Был марионеточным ханом в руках Мамая.
Булгар
Булат-Тимур (?-1367) Сын эмира Нугана. Нечингизид. Правил в 1361-1367.
Хасан (?-?) Сын эмира Махмуда. Нечингизид. Правил в 1368-1370 в Булгаре.
Алтын (?-?) Сын Абдуллы. Правил в ?-? в Казани.
Алим (?-1445) Сын Абдуллы. Правил в ?-1437 в Казани.
Гиясаддин (?-1437) Сын Шадибека. Правил в 1422-1437 в Булгаре.
Сырдарьинский улус
Тенгиз-бука (?-1360) Сын Джир-Кутлу, сына Исы-гургена. Правил в 1357-1360.
Кара-Ногай (?-1362) Сын Сасы, сына Токанчара, сына Бай-Тимура, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в 1360-1362.
Туглук-Тимур (?-1368) Сын Буджкака, брата Кара-Ногая. Правил в 1362-?.
Мурад-ходжа (?-1369) Брат Туглук-Тимура. Правил в ?-?.
Кутлук-ходжа (Букер-кутлук-ходжа)(?-1364) Сын Сасы, сына Токанчара, сына Бай-Тимура, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в ?-?.
Урус-хан (?-1377) Сын Бадыка, сына Тимур-ходжи, сына Бакубуки, сына Ачика, сына Уран-Тимура, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в 1361-1377.
Токтакия (?-1377) Сын Уруса. Правил в 1377.
Тимур-Малик (?-1379) Сын Уруса. Правил в 1377-1379.
Воссоединенный улус
Тохтамыш (?-1406) Сын Туй-ходжи, сына Кутлук-ходжи, сына Кунчека, сына Саричи, сына Уран-Тимура, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в 1379-1395.
Бек-Булат (?-1392) Генеалогия неизвестна. Был родственником Тохтамыша. Правил в 1386-1392.
Кайрджак (?-1396) Сын Уруса. Правил в 1395-1396.
Таш-Тимур (?-1396) Сын Джансы, сына Тулек-Тимура, сына Кунчека, сына Саричи, сына Уран-Тимура, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в 1395-1396.
Тимур-Кутлук (?-1399) Сын Тимура, сына Кутлук-Тимура. Правил в 1391-1399.
Шадибек (?-1407) Сын Кутлубека, сына Кутлук-Тимура. Правил в 1399-1407.
Булад (?-1410) Сын Тимур-Кутлука. Правил в 1407-1410.
Тимур-хан (?-1411) Сын Тимур-Кутлука. Правил в 1410-1411.
Джелаладдин (1365-1412) Сын Тохтамыша. Правил в 1407, 1408, 1411-1412.
Керимберды (?-1414) Сын Тохтамыша. Правил в 1412-1414.
Кепек (?-?) Сын Тохтамыша. Правил в 1413-1414.
Чекре (?-?) Сын Ахмыла, сына Минкаса, сына Абая, сына Кин-Тимура, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в 1414-1416.
Джаббар-берды (?-1417) Сын Тохтамыша и Тогайбек, дочери Хаджи-бека. Правил в 1416-1417.
Дервиш (?-1419) Сын Алты-Куртуки, сына Мамки, сына Минкаса, сына Абая, сына Кин-Тимура, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в 1417-1419.
Кадырберды (?-1419) Сын Тохтамыша и наложницы из племени черкес. Правил в 1419-1420.
Восточная часть улуса Джучи
Хаджи-Мухаммед (?-1423) Сын Али, сына Бек-Кунды-оглана, сына Менгу-Тимура, сына Бадагула, сына Джучи-Буки, сына Бахадура, сына Шибана, сына Джучи. Правил в 1421-1423.
Барак (?-1428) Сын Кайрджака. Правил в 1422-1428.
Джумадук (?-1428) Сын Суфи, сына Бабы, сына Суйунч-бая, сына Савинч-Тимура, сына Менгу-Тимура (См. улус Шибана). Правил в 1425-1428 году.
Махмуд-ходжа (?-1430) Сын Каганбека. Правил в 1428-1430.
Хызр (?-1428) Сын Ибрагима, сына Пулада. Правил в 1428
Абулхаир (1412-1468) Сын Даулет-шейха, сына Ибрагима (улус Шибана). Правил в 1428-1468.
Мустафа (?-1460-ые) Сын Мухаммеда, сына Хасана сына Бек-Кунды-оглана, сына Менгу-Тимура. Правил в 1446 в узбекском улусе, в 1446-1460-ых правил в Хорезме.
Ядигер (?-1470) Сын Тимур-шейха, сына Тимур-ходжи, сына Араб-шаха. Правил в 1458-1470.
Шейх-Хайдар (?-1469) Сын Абулхаира Правил в 1468-1469.
Баян-ходжа (?-?) Генеалогия неизвестна. Правил в ?-?.
Хуш-Хайдар (?-?) Сын Шайх-Хайдара. Правил в ?-?.
Согласно Нусрат-наме был ханом. Скорее всего его власть была минимальной Возможно он, а потом его дядя Саид-Баба были главами кланов потомков Абулхаира.
Саид-Баба (?-?) Сын Абулхаира. Правил в ?-?.
Согласно Нусрат-наме был ханом.
Абулек (?-1486) Сын Ядигера. Правил в 1470-1486.
Аминек (?-между 1500 и 1510) Сын Ядигера. Правил в 1486-между 1500 и 1510.
Большая Орда
Бек-суфи (?-1422) Сын Бектута, сына Данишменда, сына Баяна, сына Тука-Тимура, сына Джучи. Правил в 1419-1422 в Крыму.
Девлетберды (?-1427) Сын Таш-Тимура. Правил в 1421-1427.
Худайдад (?-1424) Сын Али, сына Джансы, сына Тулек-Тимура. Правил в 1422-1424.
Улуг Мухаммед (?-1445) Сын Хасана, сына Джансы, сына Тулек-Тимура (См. Крым). Правил в 1424-1437 в улусе Бату, в 1437-1445 в Казанском ханстве.
Кичи Мухаммед (1411-1459) Сын Тимур-хана и дочери Едыге. Правил в 1430-1459.
Мустафа (?-?) Сын Гиясаддина. Правил в ?-?.
Сеид-Ахмед (?-1453) Сын Керимберды. Правил в 1437-1453.
По другим данным сын Тохтамыша и Тогайбек.
Махмуд (?-1475) Сын Кичи Мухаммеда. Правил в 1459-1475.
Ахмад (?-1481) Сын Кичи Мухаммеда. Правил в 1459-1481.
Муртаза (?-1491) Сын Ахмада и Бадке-биким, сестры Хусейна Байкары (тимурид). Правил в 1481-1491.
Сеид-Ахмед II (?-?) Сын Ахмада и Уйшкн. Правил в 1481-1502.
Шейх-Ахмед (?-?) Сын Ахмада и Бер-бикем. Правил в 1481-1502.
Ходжа Мухаммед (?-?) Сын Ахмеда и Бер-Бикем. Правил в 1514-1516 в Тюмени (Дагестан). |
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curious1
мүнхэ
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Зарегистрирован: Aug 28, 2003
Сообщения: 2590
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| Добавлено: 06.04.08, 13:40 +0000 |
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Мы обнаружили две художественные книги про Чингис Хана. Одна из них совсем новая http://www.amazon.com/Genghis-Lords-Bow-Conn-Iggulden/dp/0385339526/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207499270&sr=1-1 - Genghis Lords of the Bow (Чингисовские лорды лука (буквальный перевод, хех, подстрочник)). Автор - англичанин Conn Iggulden (Конн Иггулден), пишет художественные книги на исторические темы (он автор серии бестселлеров об императорах (о Юлии Цезаре).
Первая его книга о Чингис Хане - http://www.amazon.com/Genghis-Birth-Empire-Conn-Iggulden/dp/0440243904/ref=bxgy_cc_b_img_b - Genghis. Birth of an Empire (Чингис - рождение империи). Отзывы о первой книге очень хорошие, говорят, что она хорошо написана, легко читается, дает очень выпуклое представление о жизни монголов тех времен. Кто-то даже написал, что эта книга - оживленная история.
Мы вчера только заказали эти две книги. С нетерпением ждем среды - Амазон обещал прислать все в среду. Прочитаем и сравним с Яном и Калашниковым.
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Faith is not something to grasp, it is a state to grow into.
Mohandas Gandhi
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Болею шаманской болезнью, духи зовут на Родину